I couldn't even put a number on the amount of times I have seen people say "I would come but I have 15 hrs. left on my clone :( ".

Learning implants are an unnecessary shackle.

Newbies don't generally have the option to only plug in two implants based on what they're training, though.

Please read the OP instead of blindly extrapolating from the first two sentences.

cripes I don't know if you're a troll or merely an idiot

1) I don't personally care about losing implants. I can easily replace them and I routinely fly around with +4 sets (don't care to train Cybernetics V) - hell, people routinely fly around with combat implants. Aversion to loss isn't the point behind this thread. It's an issue that affects newbies with limited sources of income.
2) This isn't even about losing implants, it's about "Sorry guys I jumped back to my empire +5 clone so I can't play eve online with you" and "seriously what the hell is the point of learning implants"
3) Nullsec and wormhole residents are at a serious disadvantage over those in highsec (or even lowsec) who are virtually immune to losing pods if they are paying attention and fairly quick on the "warp out" button. You can comfortably do things in empire with your implants - nobody would say the same about nullsec.

Take your "nullbear" bullshit elsewhere, thanks.

I'm saying that new players don't follow hyperoptimized skillplans focused on two attributes. "Only buy what you need" doesn't really apply.

Im in favor of flat rate to train 1x skill, everything is a multiple thereof. I've dealt with and said many times that I cannot do XXX because I'm remapped as YYY/ZZZ for the next QQQ months.

Visual skill trees ala Diablo 2 without needing Evemon would be pretty cool for newbies.

Right now it's just a bunch of books and show info.

"Go play this other game, EVE should be undocumented and bad"

btw, the game already has this, they're called "certificates." go unsub over CCP dumbing it down.

On one hand, it's about choice. You can put a +5 set and go PvP (theoretically) or you can stay docked, or you can just not use a +5 set at all and go anywhere, anytime you want. It is probably to give players some choices that those learning implants where implemented in the first place.

On the other hand, when most players see themselves required to choose always the same option, then the "choice" became illusory and that option became for all purposes a mandatory one.

Sometimes I wonder if the struggle, while the most apparent, is in fact just the second most important feature of the game. Apparently, a lot of players considers that progression, their sacred skill training, comes first.

I acknowledge the problem. People should not see themselves excluded from the multiplayer aspects of the game because this kind of stupid reasons. I'm just not so certain what the best solution is.

Hey I've got a better idea let's remove the skill descriptions. That way EVE will be even more unique and less dumb than WOW. People should figure out what ''tactical logistics reconfiguration'' does by themselves.

No seriously graphical skill trees aren't dumb or WOW, they're just logical. Having to click on every single skill OR use a third party program/wiki to figure out the skill dependencies is a bit ********. I actually did just that but it would just make more sense for it to be included in the game.

idgaf about this anymore, tbqfh, but it's clear that you're an elitist jerk and should get out~

to get one thing out of the way here, you're an idiot.

moving on, it has nothing to do with his objection to the proposal (because he's an elitist jerk) but his whole "GO BACK TO WOW OR RIFT, NO SKILL TREES EVE IS UNIQUE (((" bullshit, because again, he's a 16 year old elitist who wants to feel ~special~ for playing a bad spaceship game ;p

lol

I can't see why you fail to discuss the facets of the proposal without making retarded metaphors to crayons and primary school. I figure it's easier to chalk it up to the autism spectrum, v0v

You see, there is only one reason left why I don't support the complete removal of attributes (which is way more radical than the thread OP): there are a lot of people out there that wants more options to actively influence how fast their skill training goes.

There is some truth in these claims. After all it is your toon and you should be able to control him to be better at what you want him to (skill training, in this case).

But that may also be a reflex of people who played too much traditional RPG and MMO, where you are supposed to make insane ammounts of grinding to become high level.

But we are getting off-topic here. The thread is about how the implants end up excluding people from the PvP content in the long run, even if they don't realize it and even if it was due their decisions all along.

You could apply the same logic to learning skills: they too were merely a matter of choice. Of course, we all know that not training them was a bad choice. Bottom line is, some choices are at odds with what this game is about and they need not exist. Choice is not a holy cow that shall not be slaughtered.

Forum Alts: I kind of agree with our Goon friend. My posts would yield no credence had I used an alt. I think I raised some good points and addressed the OP thoroughly. ThatGÇÖs all IGÇÖll say on that one.

wrong, forum alts are used by those who cannot stand behind their words.

Pvp without consequence? I think it's enough to loose your ship, not having to worry about also loosing implants, or if you are in a JC loosing training time (time is money). I have never been podded in hi-sec, read my post again, I said hi-sec is the only place I pvp (in war decs) because my pod is safe there. If I get a JC I loose training time which is what this whole thread is all about, having to JC and loose training time for a little pvp fun. Then there is a timer so you are stuck in your JC for 24 hours, instead of just being able to JC back after the fight.

And good to know that you have 2-4 clones, I really couldn't care less...

you're all over this as if it's going to end up with 6 month old characters flying perfect titans or something

Wasn't sure if I would support this one, but the more I think about it Learning Implants are a further punishment for risk takers and a reward for risk adverse PvEers, which is bad.

Alternative solutions would be something along the lines that characters with +4 and +5s forfeit Concord Protection, but would really be much simpler to just remove them.

Uneccessary sarcasm. Also out of context.

This isn't about training skills. It's about everyone having unrestricted training times and-importantly-alternative options for implants, while being able to play where-ever they may be, without having to worry about clone-jumping to Jita and flying 40 jumps into 0.0 just to get in a battle.

Alternative example, clone-jumping to Jita and 2-1/2 hours later finding out your Corpmates need you in Stain to help them fight off an offensive by a Rival corp, and you in your civies.

Another example: Playing for 6 months as a Pirate in Delve, while running basic hardwirings and having 19 and 20 respectively, in your current primary attributes. With Pod-a-day podding, who's going to fit 300 Million ISK in implants?